Raid Training

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Raid Training

Post  Jarod on Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:32 pm

I've been giving this a lot of thinking.

Yesterday, I came to realize that.. I'm just not cut out for raids. I haven't measured my stats, I haven't sought the very best armour or weapons, I haven't spent hundreds of dollars of real money (not that I could even if I wanted to) on this game, nor have I spent every second of my free time trying to become the best.

Long and short of it is, I play for fun. Most of you out there do as well. Now, we all know that some fun does require some work, and work isn't fun. Working hard for your guild is good, because in the end, the combined work will allow for a great deal of fun that would otherwise be impossible to grasp.

With that in mind, let me offer some work.

To those of you who are interested, I'll be hosting raid training parties at regular intervals.. probably this Friday or this weekend. I'll cover the expense. If you're interested, post in here and let me know. We'll keep a running thread of what we've learned and what we'll need to do.

See, I don't like the way the Tigerman raids are going, and I'm always noticing drops in efficiency in Malachite. We're all smart here. We all know to kill the crystals when someone demands it or run in circles to save our asses when tanking. There are several problems, not the least of which is information about the situation, leadership, responsibility and teamwork. I plan to address all of those, as well as formulate a strategy for any given scenarios.

There is one thing I'd like to emphasize now: we all have ideas and we all want to be heard. However, not everyone can be a leader. I just want you to keep that in mind.

So, jumping in with both feet...

As I said, the first of these training raids will be this weekend, or this Friday (or both). I have a few things I want to try, and for that, I'll need some help.

I want to test the methods of tanking. Running around in circles or taking hits is fine, but there's so many more ways to manipulate a group of monsters. I want to take a team in, with one tank, one doc, one muse, three magic classes, and all of them subbing debuffs. Basically... I want to ground that mob out. I want to make them completely immobile. Chocking Climber, Toppling Tremor, there are a myriad of ways to get something to stop moving. No movement means no attacks. 6 people with 2 skills apiece, casting them back to back with surgical precision.. don't need a tank if you aren't getting hit.

This has a second phase to it as well. When we spawn Malachite, if there's one person taking the aggro but not getting hit, then we can keep Malachite with the mob of ogres.. and that means she won't be skating around the arena. If she's not moving, that means she's getting hit constantly, that means our solo-skill DPS are cranking on her as fast as possible.

Will it work? Will it not? Are there other things we can do? I believe there are, and I'm sure many of you have ideas of your own.


Last edited by Jarod on Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Raid Training

Post  Liah on Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:06 am

*nods* I agree fully with what you're saying and I think its a good idea. During the last Malachite, we tried our best to keep the all ogres together and Celi trapped them with Choking Climber. Its very effective and it does help a lot. I got hit a whole lot less. Only having to kite until cooldown which isn't long at all maybe about 10-15 seconds is very good. Considering Malachite has a habit of following the ogres as well as the tank team -.- this would make it easier to stay closer and keep her from moving so much. To also make it easier on the tanks I found it easy if the eyes are split between them instead letting one take full aggro. About 3 eyes per tank is a good amount, its a bit tricky to cast mock without taking aggro of the other tanks, but when you cast keep a fair amount of distance or use attacks such as taunt.
Either way, I know we can do this. The first bit was going well and with a bit more practice we'll be perfect at this in no time. So sign me up for more practice :p
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Re: Raid Training

Post  Sylpha on Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:56 pm

ok, this might sound cheap but its about the last malachite fight we had. i learned something and if it sounds to cheap to do, well not do it but in my opinion, i dont care if its cheap as long as it works.
i found that there is a small corner of the construction site that you can get the ogres into but malachite cant follow in. this kept the ogres close enough to malachite so they dont respawn, but far enough away that they didnt affect the dps in the least. this also made it so when malachite tryed to back up, and go to the ogres, she wouldnt move but run into the wall.
i think we should exploit this little tidbit myself, and it seemed to work for the 3 or 4 minutes we did it.
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Re: Raid Training

Post  Jarod on Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:40 pm

Sylpha wrote:ok, this might sound cheap but its about the last malachite fight we had. i learned something and if it sounds to cheap to do, well not do it but in my opinion, i dont care if its cheap as long as it works.
i found that there is a small corner of the construction site that you can get the ogres into but malachite cant follow in. this kept the ogres close enough to malachite so they dont respawn, but far enough away that they didnt affect the dps in the least. this also made it so when malachite tryed to back up, and go to the ogres, she wouldnt move but run into the wall.
i think we should exploit this little tidbit myself, and it seemed to work for the 3 or 4 minutes we did it.

Good idea, ideally we'll train with enough people that we can kill the Ogres and spawn Malachite. In that case, we'll try that and see what happens. If we can't spawn Malachite, we'll drag the Ogres in regardless just to see. We can also explore other ideas. Perhaps we can kill the Ogres, causing them to respawn, but force Malachite into an area where they respawn, but can't move. If that's the case, well shew, that takes care of that problem, eh?
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Re: Raid Training

Post  Sylpha on Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:11 am

Jarod wrote:
Sylpha wrote:ok, this might sound cheap but its about the last malachite fight we had. i learned something and if it sounds to cheap to do, well not do it but in my opinion, i dont care if its cheap as long as it works.
i found that there is a small corner of the construction site that you can get the ogres into but malachite cant follow in. this kept the ogres close enough to malachite so they dont respawn, but far enough away that they didnt affect the dps in the least. this also made it so when malachite tryed to back up, and go to the ogres, she wouldnt move but run into the wall.
i think we should exploit this little tidbit myself, and it seemed to work for the 3 or 4 minutes we did it.

Good idea, ideally we'll train with enough people that we can kill the Ogres and spawn Malachite. In that case, we'll try that and see what happens. If we can't spawn Malachite, we'll drag the Ogres in regardless just to see. We can also explore other ideas. Perhaps we can kill the Ogres, causing them to respawn, but force Malachite into an area where they respawn, but can't move. If that's the case, well shew, that takes care of that problem, eh?

very much so, im my opinion, whatever gets you the win Very Happy
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Re: Raid Training

Post  Celica on Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:29 am

The tanks were given some scapegoat dolls but those didn't last very long...so instead of those there are other items we could use.

On the "expensive" side...items like HP/MP necklaces, booster pills and possibly GM books (although those would be harder to find) might help...aside from scapes...also rez plates...so ppl can self-rez but then you still get weakness so energy chilis take that away quick but yeah like I said very pricey...

Pets! A little extra firepower by using 60+ lvl pets. We'd need some pet muses though....

Then it comes down to armor. Double-gold stated, slotted and fitted with specific onyx. Onyxs are not useless! The degree of armor really comes into play now with Raids and Malachite.

Thus, I believe those would be some of the usual items that ppl in Genesis or Fierce would use for their raids...and I suppose they may have used them for Malachite as well...

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Re: Raid Training

Post  Kazaa on Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:34 pm

if we are to use pets on malachite we have to have pure pet muses, my lvl 61 saph died in no time when up against malachite, she just tore her apart and i was spamming pedigree powders all i could. to even keep them alive pet heals and buffs will have to be up, maybe even 2 people spamming pet heals.
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Re: Raid Training

Post  Mjrn on Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:47 pm

On the pet subject, Livane held out quite well, but my muse has decently high pet heals which I sub on my BM. I was debating my muse a little higher to get the next level, if I'm in a team with someone else who has the MP and HP heal over level 5 the pets will be perfect fine.

Incase you need a visual level 5 heals around 1000-1100 hp and 140mp
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Re: Raid Training

Post  Jarod on Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:09 pm

Pets are another good alternative. And you're right Kaz, it would be amazingly helpful to have a very high level pure Pet muse. Pet buffs will make a world of difference. I mean, imagine going into battle with no buffs on yourself. Imagine how long you'd last o.o''

Also, I think Pet skills are very fast to cast, which means, anyone can sub them and they won't be terribly inconvenienced.. even if it was a DPS.

Celi, the high level and expensive items are an option, but I would rather not resort to that unless absolutely, irrevocably necessary. Imagine having 150 Scapes and 10 HP necklaces, gold-statted and onyxed level 55 armour, and standing perfectly still while everything that you've spent literally months collecting is wasted in minutes. ... I'd rather use Choking Climber and kite. Hell, I can kite those Ogres without being hit and that's NOT using any immobilization skills.

Step 1: Figure out what we can do to them. Determine the absolute maximum limit of de-buffs, immobilization and autonomous counter-attacking of the monsters. In essence, we test the limits of our control over them.

Step 2: Figure out what we can do to ourselves, and how much we can shave off the top in order to remain within the limit of the control that we have over the mob. Do we need 55 double-gold-stated, or would a Shef set be enough? Do Docs really need a Plat wand, do Muses really need a Plat instrument? Speed and agility over defense, and if so, to whom? Does a tank team that isn't getting hit need two Docs, does a DPS team that isn't getting hit need two Docs?

Step 3: Turn the theoretical into a reality. It's not enough to say that we CAN immobilize the mob for a full 3 hours, just for fun.. we actually have to do it. That means, no disconnects, no lag, no interruptions on the user-side. Can we stay in communication with each other, or will we resort to random, meaningless jibbering? In short.. can we even use what we find out?

Step 4: Perfection. Refining our abilities and becoming even more efficient. We know all this now, and once we push the limits, new limits will present themselves. We must forever strive to be better.
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Re: Raid Training

Post  Karasukira on Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:35 pm

there is a slight problem with pet songs....although they are fast to cast.....it takes a huge toll on your mp.....most of a lvl 60 pure pet muse's buffs cost around 120mp or so....sorry to say that DPS wouldnt be able to handle it...but maybe a dancer/debuffer could instead...even a nuker wiz/sham could since they would recover that kinds mp in no time

i think for MM we use at the absolute least lvl 52s, and lvl 50 armor is far better than the 40 counter-part....it might cost 60-70k for a single set and even more to maintain it over time...but if you want to save that money....you can get the 50+armors and upgrade them since the gold stat bonuses help tons, and dgold stats help tons more...needless to say full onyxed armor would make you almost invincible in normal soloing Razz but those are optional......>.> anyway back to topic....you can get the 50+ armors just for raids/MM/special events....and then use the lvl 40 armors for normal lvling to slow down the wear&tear on the 50 sets

as for the expensive items....yea they are only optional...helps a lot but completely optional and would be better if we didnt have to use those

and to put Jarod's plan into action.....the grizzly bears would be a nice testing ground considering their damage to the lower lvls is like that of malachite to the higher lvl members....ofcourse they have different properties than malachite, but we are only testing without having to waste to practice....maybe after we get more coordinated with the bears we then try it on malachite herself

the plat syringe helps that it increases healing effects at its lvl 40 base, but a plat instrument is completely useless other than looks as every intrument does the same thing...but if all possible..phys gold the instrument since it increases the MP restoring effect of transfusion

the stat base, pretty much depends on the player and their available subs....and we should practice to see what the teams need.....imo, the DPS team should only need 1 of each regular supporter (doc/muse) and Nuke team have a doc, muse (possibbly 2 or someone subbing it), and a debuffer
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